Curse

elektra_lucia · Mar 26, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

I'm always defensive caster or monk.

To the original poster of this thread. If you're always a defensive caster, maybe you arn't interupting that much? Maybe you don't realise how easy it is to counter aegis?

This thread is just another dumb thread. Aegis is easy to counter. Not saying something is balanced because it can be countered, but as it can be stripped AFTER its used and interupted BEFORE its used extremely easily it does add weight to the argument of it not being over powered.

Learn to play.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 26, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

To the original poster of this thread. If you're always a defensive caster, maybe you arn't interupting that much? Maybe you don't realise how easy it is to counter aegis?

This thread is just another dumb thread. Aegis is easy to counter. Not saying something is balanced because it can be countered, but as it can be stripped AFTER its used and interupted BEFORE its used extremely easily it does add weight to the argument of it not being over powered.

Learn to play.

Aegis user = monk, Aegis = radar range, monk = already pretty far in the backline. How far are you willing to overextend to hit a monk using Aegis? Especially on a caster, as half the time a ranger's interrupt won't hit due to LoS or the Aegis chain.

Also, stripping Aegis really isn't an option unless you're using mass enchant removal (rending sweep) or you're removing it for spikes. No enchant removal can keep up with warriors trying to actually pressure when they're switching targets as fast as possible to stay ahead of enemy prots. Basically, a warrior tries to pressure, staying ahead of prots, o wait, the ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM is protted, so therefore the warrior is limited to training one target with the help of enchant removal, or spiking with enchant removal.

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Also, stripping Aegis really isn't an option unless you're using mass enchant removal (rending sweep) or you're removing it for spikes.

Best thing to use would be Mirror of Disenchantment, which you can stick on an Me/E bar to make the glyph eat most of the cost.

Eilsys · Mar 27, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Best thing to use would be Mirror of Disenchantment, which you can stick on an Me/E bar to make the glyph eat most of the cost.

Or, better yet, buff Mirror of Disenchantment. Make it either: same cost, with varying energy return based on how many enchants are removed (meaning it can backfire and remove Guardian or something), or make it 10 or 15 energy. Nerfing Aegis to 25% or making it conditional is stupid... we already have the Paragon equivalent of a nerfed Aegis, and look at how often it gets used.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 27, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Well, think about it 1 Aegis recharges in 30 seconds, MoD recharges in 10 , so if it were lowered to 15 ( which seems fine to me) the recharge should be raised to 20 seconds or even 30. ( i think 20 is perfect tho)

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilsys

we already have the Paragon equivalent of a nerfed Aegis, and look at how often it gets used.

Defensive Anthem is kind of in a different league, and is a worse skill for numerous reasons, the least being inability to mitigate its huge cost, and the fact that it's elite. I don't think it's really comparable.

MoD's cost seems fine, IMO, considering the actual effect you get out of it. It's not like running Me/E is inconvenient, nor is wiping out an Aegis cast a bad payoff for 10e.

Undressed · Mar 27, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

I don't consider Aegis too strong, it just suddenly turned out to be when the new GolE came to into being and thus making chains cost nothing at all.

You either give GolE:

- a longer recharge from 30s --> 45s

- "only" 10 energy less for the next 2 casts

- redesign Glyphs and bind them to "ES", giving Elementalists less reason to cry and more reason to buff other management-skills.

change Aegis to:

- only affecting party members who are not enchanted (after-enchants shouldn't remove it though, remember, melee is so strong that people have a reason to chain it)

Xenex Xclame · Mar 27, 2007, 09:25 AM // 09:25

No no no no no....
There is nothing wrong with either of those two skills, its when they are combined that they become powerfull

The lower it to 10 energy less , wont do much i believe,since it will still be aegis for 5 energy and ZB for example is still free to cast. ( not saying anything about those 2 skill together just giving example!!)

Im not so sure i like the aegis you propose it might do more bad then good, i think lots of times only half the time would get aegis in that case, lots of times also the monks.

BlackSephir · Mar 27, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

It's the same problem as with boa sins- sp alone was okay, not so okay with boa...

Aegis alone is cool but with gole... meh, free 50% chance to block for 8 ppl? Im in!

minor · Mar 27, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Using Mod sounds good in theory, but I would bet you would hit other enchants some of the time and not really get the effect.

Bankai · Mar 27, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

To the original poster of this thread. If you're always a defensive caster, maybe you arn't interupting that much? Maybe you don't realise how easy it is to counter aegis?

This thread is just another dumb thread. Aegis is easy to counter. Not saying something is balanced because it can be countered, but as it can be stripped AFTER its used and interupted BEFORE its used extremely easily it does add weight to the argument of it not being over powered.

Learn to play.

Sunday I was monking in HA. After some time, we finally faced a team that actually tried to interrupt aegis.

So whenever I wanted to use aegis, I walked back a few steps, and I never got interrupted anymore.

Less theory, more practice plx.

Also, the 15/2/30 1...5 second aegis does suck indeed. I wasn't really paying attention when I said "That's nice".

However, it does sound remarkably much like "Incoming".

MaaKotka · Mar 27, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

How I see this: Melee pressure is biggest consern for teams and aegis is most powerful melee hate there is, which explaines why aegis is so popular. Aegis has always been very powerful defensive skill with 2 major drawbacks, energy cost and recharge. Now when gole got buffed it made 1 of those drawbacks more manageable. While aegis have gotten kind of buffs via removed evade and buffed gole, blocking affected pressure has also got much stronger.

If aegis gets nerfed, teams probably have to dedicate 1 more charachter for defensive purposes and most caster based offense comes more unattractive simply because blocking based offense is much more effective. Nerfing gole won't have so big effect on this, but it also makes caster based offence less attractive. What I would like to see is other party wide protection to get buffed little bit, so they would be viable choises with aegis, and aegis to get some little nerf. Mayby shorten its duration by 1 second. Blocking affected pressure is so big now that teams really have to dedicate some charachters to have something major against it and right now pretty much only option is somekind of aegis chain.

Shmanka · Mar 27, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Sunday I was monking in HA. After some time, we finally faced a team that actually tried to interrupt aegis.

So whenever I wanted to use aegis, I walked back a few steps, and I never got interrupted anymore.

Less theory, more practice plx.

Practice against R2 wammo's doesn't count. The problem with Aegis atm is that it is being abused, it is not overpowered.

With Aegis protection on the defensive line and support is now lesser then usual. Meaning the Ele's aren't carrying it as much from attribute spread etc etc.

Aegis discourages melee teams, yet the teams with aegis have pure offensive characters requiring your team to be either more cor-ordinated, or more suited to counter the situation.

I see Aegis being quite a safehold in HA, with 3 teams randomly duking it out, at the same time if your speaking about GvG there is absolutely no reason with 8 characters that not ONE of them has an enchantment removal for GENERAL purpose to begin with. My suggestion.

Make Aegis 3 sec cast time, this leaves a gateway for pressure and makes the skill only defensive well within reach+spike time.

That is all you need to do, the good teams that use aegis will still use it, the GolE+Aegis spammers get owned.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 27, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Even know i would hate a 3 second cast aegis, i don't think it would be that bad.

Sinful Doom · Mar 28, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

If you want to "fix" aegis, I personally dont have a conflict with it, return inspiration skills back to what they were? example = Drain Ench

Surena · Mar 28, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Anet's shifting the fixiation from one skill line to the other. That's not balance, it's just a "fresh wind" (at the beginning) which turns out to suffocated people with its smell once they stand too long in it.

This strategy is just wrong. You don't balance by just nerfing skills which get overused or buffing those who never got used.

It doesn't matter if Glyph is "only" overpowered with Aegis and vice versa and you shouldn't advice to balance around something else. It's plain wrong. Without the glyph people would be less excited to throw in aegins chains.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 28, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Agree on your first part on how Anet is balancing,we don't really get to choose, they are feeding us which skills to use.

Don't get your second part, cause the way I'm reading it , you are contradicting yourself.

Surena · Mar 28, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Some people claim that none of the two skills are overpowered, just only when combined, which is the actual problem. You can't get around it by just making other lines like inspiration attractive for people would still use GoLE (it'll still be easier than drain ench or power drain since it's unconditional). You have to tone down the existing skills and balance the lines on an even level so people could choose without having to force themselves on something called "Meta".

Skye Marin · Mar 28, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

A number of folks here are strongly suggesting interrupting Aegis to break the chain as the primary counter. An important thing to note here is that a monk using Aegis can be farther behind that backline than normal and still cast it effectively. To make a comparison, it's like Spirit-Spamming. While the spirits take 3-5 seconds to cast each, they are able to be out range enough to still be essentially immune to interrupts. We all know what happened to Shelter and Boon of Creation.

While I don't think it deserves a nerf that heavy, it's definitely possible.

Aegis is meta. It's not invincible, but it is extremely effective against all flavours of melee pressure. It synergizes well with Spirit and Pain of Failure, and stacking with Reckless Haste and Blurred Vision makes attacking characters a liability. But you all know that.

So, how do we fix it?

There are plenty of ideas around here, and some are pretty good. I think the best way to fix the skill is to buff existing counters, or take away the unique unfair advantage that the skill gives, or both. Here's my take:

Aegis
10/2/30
Enchantment Spell. For 1...11 seconds, all party members within Earshot have a 50% chance to block attacks.

Lower the cost and the GoLE advantage shrinks. Make it earshot and the monk is now in range for interruption. This strategy can be used for many other skills. Knock the cost down 5 or 10 energy or buff the skill, and make the skill "in earshot" so the person who buffs the team has to be part of it.

Ignore these next suggestions at your liesure.

Heal Party - reduce cost to 10, increase recharge to 5.
Light of Deliverance - lower cast time to 3/4

And Spirit Spammers:
Shelter - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce cost to 15, reduce cast time to 3 seconds
Union - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce cost to 10
Displacement - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce damage taken by spirit from 60 to 45
Boon of Creation - Buff back to old values

How's that?

Patccmoi · Mar 28, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

A number of folks here are strongly suggesting interrupting Aegis to break the chain as the primary counter. An important thing to note here is that a monk using Aegis can be farther behind that backline than normal and still cast it effectively. To make a comparison, it's like Spirit-Spamming. While the spirits take 3-5 seconds to cast each, they are able to be out range enough to still be essentially immune to interrupts. We all know what happened to Shelter and Boon of Creation.

While I don't think it deserves a nerf that heavy, it's definitely possible.

Aegis is meta. It's not invincible, but it is extremely effective against all flavours of melee pressure. It synergizes well with Spirit and Pain of Failure, and stacking with Reckless Haste and Blurred Vision makes attacking characters a liability. But you all know that.

So, how do we fix it?

There are plenty of ideas around here, and some are pretty good. I think the best way to fix the skill is to buff existing counters, or take away the unique unfair advantage that the skill gives, or both. Here's my take:

Aegis
10/2/30
Enchantment Spell. For 1...11 seconds, all party members within Earshot have a 50% chance to block attacks.

Lower the cost and the GoLE advantage shrinks. Make it earshot and the monk is now in range for interruption. This strategy can be used for many other skills. Knock the cost down 5 or 10 energy or buff the skill, and make the skill "in earshot" so the person who buffs the team has to be part of it.

Ignore these next suggestions at your liesure.

Heal Party - reduce cost to 10, increase recharge to 5.
Light of Deliverance - lower cast time to 3/4

And Spirit Spammers:
Shelter - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce cost to 15, reduce cast time to 3 seconds
Union - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce cost to 10
Displacement - Range "in Earshot" to spirit, Reduce damage taken by spirit from 60 to 45
Boon of Creation - Buff back to old values

How's that?

That's something i suggested before and personally i like it. I much prefer earshot range to party range. I'm not too sure for something like LoD especially since it's elite, and not convinced on heal party because those have an interesting use like healing a flag runner out of range, etc., but for the protection stuff, especially spirits, i'd find them much more interesting this way. Being 'better' but not covering such a wide area so that they're always in range to either be destroyed or interrupted. It promotes active counters like kd and interrupts a lot more and this makes the game interesting.